Welcome to the TravelPod forums
This is the place where TravelPod bloggers exchange travel tips with each other. Have a question? Ask one of our Local Experts by clicking "new topic" in any category.

3 Pages V < 1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Anyone heard about sickness in Pai?
wakingdream
post Jul 11 2008, 05:16 PM
Post #21


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 5853
Joined: 18-August 06
From: Guelph, Ontario
Member No.: 13336




QUOTE(thellie @ Jul 11 2008, 03:36 PM) *

susie has it, if not quite in a nutshell, perfectly.

me, i'd rather just say that louise and paul-pad and a couple of ignorant c . u . n . t . s

that's enough from me - goodbye travelpod and the growing amount of tossers in this site

Well dude, that's really too bad. I would hate to not read your thoughts and advice 'round here. We won't always agree, that's a given, but sharing what we know and what we think is, I think, a good thing. I hope you reconsider b/c your advice, especially in SEA, is valuable and I know alot of people get alot from it and appreciate you giving your time to help out.

Anyway, I really ranted and raved I guess, but the country is one close to my heart and things, as many of us know, are definitely not always what they seem.

I don't think Louise meant to offend anyone or encourage any kind of rude or bad behaviour, she's just not quite aware of the situation(s) over there as some others are. I think her comment may have seem to illustrate something she wasn't trying to encourage....

We all do what we gotta do. We just have to remember that the way we act doesn't always only affect ourselves, it affects others as well, whether we realize it or not. We're all connected.....


--------------------
~Susie

'Yesterday's the past and tomorrow's the future. Today is a gift - which is why they call it the present.'
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pauls_pad2002
post Jul 11 2008, 10:26 PM
Post #22


Wanderer
*

Group: Members
Posts: 19
Joined: 21-March 08
Member No.: 157116




thellie i see no reason why that someone who advocates good caring qualities feels the need to abuse with that kind of language, just cos we dont share ur opinion..this isnt about you or me its about a subject so please refrain from using a word to judge me in that matter......actually im 41 almost and own 3 companies and have travelled enough of the world and have enough life experienced that most will never have.....because we share a different opinion it doesnt mean im a *$#@...........i think this subject goes a lot deeper than than any of us really know....like i said im no druggie nor do i drink a lot, i love thailand thats why i chose to live here for a while and ill be back, i have many thai friends whom i respect and share their culture but the tribal problem is one that has been created on their own and thats not to say i dont care about that but im just one person and if i do my bit to not take their drugs then im happy that at least ive contributed in some small way, it doesnt mean that my opinion on their activities and however they carry them out and for what reasons or generations they have been doing it, changes at all.......the problems they have their with drugs are borne from their own generational way of life...it will never change....no matter how bad ......
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Paul
post Jul 12 2008, 05:53 AM
Post #23


Navigator
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1321
Joined: 9-November 04
From: Thailand
Member No.: 98




QUOTE(starlagurl @ Jul 11 2008, 08:48 AM) *

Point taken, but I think that people will do drugs no matter what I say. Also, I really am curious, I've never been to Thailand, but I thought that consuming mushroom pizza and weed shakes were pretty much the norm. Guess I'm wrong?

I don't really know what the "local culture" means....
If you do drugs anywhere else in the world, is that destroying the "local culture"? I don't think so...How does consuming mind altering substances destroy the "culture"?



1. I think there are many new travellers reading this site and learning about how to travel, and what is the "norm". I believe you will influence those people, and so far some of the things you have written will influence them to behave in a negative fashion. (in my opinion).
And as a paid Travelpod writer - we must assume that you represent Travelpod on these issues.

But yes, there are others that no matter what you say, will or will not take drugs, etc. True.

2. mushroom / weed shakes pretty much the norm - yes you are very very wrong and I feel sorry for you if that is the sort of perception you have of Thai people and the amazingly diverse and often beautiful cultures that we are blessed with here.

3. Yes, you don't know what the local culture means.

4. Yes, pretty much everywhere in the world, if you consume mind altering substances, there is a high chance that you are committing a crime, supporting illegal activities, supporting and funding organised crime, hurting yourself and adding the the sad breakdown of community and family values.

User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Paul
post Jul 12 2008, 06:17 AM
Post #24


Navigator
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1321
Joined: 9-November 04
From: Thailand
Member No.: 98




QUOTE(pauls_pad2002 @ Jul 11 2008, 09:39 AM) *

ur right staragurl, i dont also advocate the use of drugs, there is no point being a complete idiot on this subject especially when it comes to a few people that think cos they teach in the area or volounter there that they are the do gooders for everything....i have the utmost repsect for thai people and culture, ive also lived with the hmong tribe in vietnam and chat with one on a more than regular basis...it is well known if u really know ur thing, that the local tribes people are the worst abusers of drugs...they openly push it smoke it or whatever...the hmong tribe in vietnam openly sell to ferangs n the street day and night and as my very close friend belongs to the tribe itself she has informed me that they drink more then we do and also grow and procure the drugs to sell and the buyer gets the worst part of it........why be ignorant to whats going on..ppl are only buying what they are seling....now whose the culprit here..the buyer or the seller...i can tell u now that the seller is usally sen as scum...but do these guys see it like that..i dont think so.....open ur mind guys and smell the coffee......this area has been trading drugs well before u were in nappies..........oh and staragurl i also havent had a shake or pizza and wont, but im honest to say that i have smoked a bit and very occassionally still do but usually in my own country in my own space..rather than abuse that space that others choose to live



Obviously I don't know my thing, as it comes across that Canadians are the worst offenders and think taking drugs is normal. crazy.gif

I have also worked and stayed in Sapa over a period of time and have H'mong friends from the area. From what I have seen occur to that area over a period of about 7 years is a huge increase in tourism and then a huge increase in drugs and prostitution. I think Sapa is a great case study for the benefits and negatives of tourism. It isn't just things like drugs and prostitution either - now, as you well know, many of the H'mong girls hang around the town and sell things to tourists. Many are no longer learning to sew and embroider and so can no longer make their traditional clothes that they, their husbands and children would wear. Added to that, many are skipping school so they can sell things to tourists. And in the mean time as the town has grown in crime, drugs, prostitution, etc to service the tourists - this is now the area where the young girls find themselves hanging around. Healthy?

Yes, drugs were in Sapa before my birth. But don't take that to mean they are positive things. And remember that the large scale drug growing and then abuse only occurred when the British started importing opium into China and South East Asia. Opium as a problem in that area isn't some ancient form of tribal life - it is an introduced problem that has caused enormous suffering.
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Paul
post Jul 12 2008, 06:38 AM
Post #25


Navigator
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1321
Joined: 9-November 04
From: Thailand
Member No.: 98




And lastly:

Wow - you guys have done something that I have failed to do - get rid of Thellie.
blow.gif


Hmmm, I don't want to go on abusing each other. Pretty tiring and a waste of time that could be used more productively.

I don't have a problem with people having different views. That is good and we have had some pretty healthy conversations on this site.

But I am concerned with Louise, as a paid Travelpod staff member, advocating actions that are clearly damaging to local people. I think that is wrong, and I wouldn't like to see Travelpod (who Louise represents) continue in this way. It would also cause me to withdraw my support. if the company advocates tourism in such a negative form.


Speaking of Thellie too - from a number of Thais - he is respected more than the average foreigner as someone that understands the culture here and fits in, and as a good person. That isn't coming from me (although I agree), it comes from Thai people that know him and have told me that.

So I don't reckon he deserves too much abuse. He is trying to help the people in this country. If he is a bit irritable and tired, it is probably because he is helping, and does understand, and so he is getting more and more tasks to do in this area.


Regarding myself and my views - yep, I agree I don't know much. I am learning. But my thoughts on Thailand are heavily influenced by Thai people who have been working to improve Thailand and ease the suffering of people for almost 20 years; by my wife who grew up herding buffalos and then educated herself to the extent she now has a Masters Degree, and has also spent considerable time giving people opportunities they wouldn't otherwise have; by many others and by extensive reading and observation. So what I write in here is my views - but it is often more than that. And the views I write about drugs certainly fit in with that. They are very much the views of many other Thais that work in development, of parents, of teachers, etc.


Suggestion - if ever confused while travelling - about what is positive behaviour or not; here is a simple test you can run through in your mind:

If you were a local mum with kids growing up here and a wish for those kids to grow up in a safe, healthy positive environment; would you want a tourist to act in the way you are about to act in? If the answer is no, then perhaps you should re-consider what you are doing.


For Paulspad2002 - I can highly recommend the Opium Museum in Chiang Sean that is set up under the King's Mum's Foundation. Possibly the best museum I have ever been to in the world, hugely informative on the subject and history and excellently presented.


That is it. I am a bit over this thread.

See ya

User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Paul
post Jul 12 2008, 11:14 PM
Post #26


Navigator
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1321
Joined: 9-November 04
From: Thailand
Member No.: 98




But wait there is more:

I suggest you read "The Poppy and the Peach" by the Royal Project Foundation.


It also mentions the environmental damage caused by opium production that I forgot to mention as well as all the social effects and effects on families. Opium production usually requires the complete clearing of areas, and then after time once that area cannot be re-used, the complete clearing of new areas.


There is a chart showing how US heroin addicts support their addiction as an example to contemplate:
Prostitution = 31%
Confidence Tricks = 3%
Robbery = 3%
Pickpocketing = 19%
Larceny = 19%
Burglary = 19%
Shoplifting = 22%
Social security = 3%
Other legal means = 4%


Oh, and your claim that Hill Tribe people are the biggest users, isn't supported by the figures which show that it is people from Oceania, Eastern Europe, North America and then Western Europe that have the biggest addict per head of population rates. Africa, Asia and South America are at the bottom, well below the others.


Also some figures that 1 in 390 Herion users will die of overdose. 1 in 460 Methadone users. 1 in 6600 Cocaine users, and so on.


And the book covers the extensive work done by the Thai Royal family to alleviate poverty and stop the production of opium in Thailand. At times this work was done at personal risk to the King in the middle of a Communist insurgency.


Any tourist that then comes and supports the illegal drug trade is working directly against this and is supporting an industry that harms Thailand, causes crime, sad loses to families, destroys the environment, etc.



Is it clear yet?


Oh the other thing I wanted to mention: Please don't listen to me. Ignore me. But I think you won't find one single well educated, knowledgeable person who has done extensive work and research on Thailand, drug use and the Hill Tribes, that would suggest tourists should use drugs. But I suspect you'll probably find 100% of them agree that by tourists doing so they are hurting local people and communities as well as having an overall bad effect on Thai society, our economy and political processes.


Good bye
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pauls_pad2002
post Jul 13 2008, 01:18 PM
Post #27


Wanderer
*

Group: Members
Posts: 19
Joined: 21-March 08
Member No.: 157116




thanks for the info paul....ill see if i can get to that museum sometime....oh and about sapa...im not so sure ur info is correct there, is it a while since u went or not....1 of my friends is in love with a hmong gal and im also contemplating the same scenario with another.....

shes a guide...i never saw any prostiution but i do know its there in the karaoke bars ...i cant say i saw it tho and was out walking most nights at 1/2am after drinking in hmong sister bar with the hmong girls...most of the hmong i know still do the embroidery as does my 12 yr old friend of 2 years and her friends also...my good friend there is also married to one of them for 3 years now and he also said not many pros there...however i do agree with the drug scene its very active and openly offered and me myself also think this is a shame its gone a bit like that.....mb one day it will evapourate for their own survival...who knows i guess the foreign influence and presence is a big factor in this....i share ur views regards to harming the locals and for this reason although i admit to the odd social party smoke i will not participate in this country due to my own cultural awareness....
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Paul
post Jul 14 2008, 03:16 AM
Post #28


Navigator
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1321
Joined: 9-November 04
From: Thailand
Member No.: 98




The museum is really worth it.

Sapa - you may be right - some of my info is dated or passed on from a friend. It was a friend who lead a group through there recently that complained that prostitution had become rife. I was there about 1.5 years ago, and town had certainly changed, became busier and there was certainly more karaoke bars etc, but I didn't see prostitution myself, so? Hopefully it hasn't got as bad as my friend suggested.

I think for sure many of the girls are loosing the ability to sew, that was a main complaint of a H'mong friend of mine who I have known for many years and from observation I am sure that is occurring. But good to hear some aren't loosing the skills.
Even the amount they are drinking - is that new? Positive? You can ask the elders more yourself.

Sapa and the way it is developing is a real mixed bag. Some great benefits coming in but at a cost also. Thailand has been through this scenario many times in many areas.

We can't hope to control everything and make everything magically good - but with a bit of knowledge hopefully we can reduce the negative impacts and increase the positive.

Anyway, good luck with your H'mong girl and your life there. It is a beautiful area.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

For others that still not convinced perhaps you can have a look at the book "Development or Domestiction - Indigenous Peoples of Southeast Asia" by Don McCaskill and Ken Kampe.

The various authors of the book have well over 100 years of combined experience in development in S.E.Asia with minority peoples.

They record facts such as the Akhazang (traditional Akha religion) has no reference to opium or drugs and so this suggests that the Akha for one, didn't traditionally utilise drugs.

They record the correlation between villages that have tourism and villages that have drug addiction problems. Same villages. And the drug addiction they have seen starts at 2 year old babies that have picked up the problem from parents through to the elderly.

They record how trekking companies lie to the tourists to say that opium use or prostitution is normal to keep the tourists happy and so they can get their cut of the sales of these services.

They mention the huge incidence of AIDS and drug addiction in Myanmar and you should note that if you are buying drugs in Thailand - you are quite possibly helping finance the Burmese junta (as well as killing Thais, breaking the law, breaking up families, destroying cultures, destroying the environment, ....)


So, for you new travellers - is it acceptable or normal to indulge your short term pleasure or dull your brain by utilising drugs in S.E.Asia - NO!!!! it is not.

It is not acceptable to destroy the culture here.
It is not acceptable to come here and break the law.
It is not acceptable to break down family values.
It is not acceptable to put your pleasure before everyone else.
It is not acceptable to work against the great work of the King and others
It is not acceptable to support organised crime.
It is not acceptable to promote drug addiction.
and so on.

I hope this is reasonably clear now.

See ya




User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
starlagurl
post Jul 14 2008, 07:58 AM
Post #29


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 14509
Joined: 5-November 07
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 103914




Wow...all I can say is that I'm sorry I appeared to be encouraging drug use. I'm not encouraging or discouraging it. Definitely not taking a side on this issue. If it seemed like I was advising someone on this issue, I didn't mean it that way.

Like I said, I don't know anything about Thailand, and I never claimed to.

One thing I do know a little bit about is the psychology of drug users. If someone wants to do drugs, nothing anyone else says will convince them not to. You can shove statistics, scientific studies and all kinds of serious news articles in their face and still, they will still do it.


--------------------
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Paul
post Jul 14 2008, 08:31 AM
Post #30


Navigator
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1321
Joined: 9-November 04
From: Thailand
Member No.: 98




"One thing I do know a little bit about is the psychology of drug users."

You suggest drug users can't under any circumstances control their actions. No logic, compassion, respect or other thoughts will stop them from harming themselves and others.

Other Paul suggests although he has had drugs he can use his knowledge and respect for people to avoid drugs in areas where he would feel it innapropriate.

So there seems to be a conflict here?

Which is it?

And are you still saying to travellers "do whatever you want and F*#$ the locals"

or are you encouraging them to travel responsibly?

Please choose.

User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
starlagurl
post Jul 14 2008, 08:38 AM
Post #31


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 14509
Joined: 5-November 07
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 103914




QUOTE(Paul @ Jul 14 2008, 09:31 AM) *

"One thing I do know a little bit about is the psychology of drug users."

You suggest drug users can't under any circumstances control their actions. No logic, compassion, respect or other thoughts will stop them from harming themselves and others.


Hmmm... no I'm not saying that exactly. It's just that the people that I have known, just disregard anything you tell them, and continue on their merry way.

QUOTE(Paul @ Jul 14 2008, 09:31 AM) *

Other Paul suggests although he has had drugs he can use his knowledge and respect for people to avoid drugs in areas where he would feel it innapropriate.

So there seems to be a conflict here?

Which is it?

And are you still saying to travellers "do whatever you want and F*#$ the locals"

or are you encouraging them to travel responsibly?

Please choose.


I don't know Paul personally, so I don't know what he's talking about.

When I come back from an extensive trip to Thailand, I think I might be able to take a stand on this issue. Right now, I cannot.


--------------------
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Paul
post Jul 14 2008, 08:54 AM
Post #32


Navigator
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1321
Joined: 9-November 04
From: Thailand
Member No.: 98




So until you go to Thailand, you cannot ask people to travel responsibly?

Is that also the official Travelpod line?

User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
starlagurl
post Jul 14 2008, 08:57 AM
Post #33


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 14509
Joined: 5-November 07
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 103914




I don't know what responsibly means exactly, I'm having trouble with this term. I presume it means something along the lines of going somewhere and not burning the place down?


--------------------
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Paul
post Jul 14 2008, 09:15 AM
Post #34


Navigator
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1321
Joined: 9-November 04
From: Thailand
Member No.: 98




You might want to have a little office meeting about it. Perhaps look it up and do a little research. Educate yourself a bit. Spend some time thinking.

Although my country isn't run by Westerners - we'd call doing something like that:

"Responsibility" or "Your duty"
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
starlagurl
post Jul 14 2008, 09:16 AM
Post #35


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 14509
Joined: 5-November 07
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 103914




Yes, I know, and I am thinking about it and I'm sure we will have a discussion on it. But I'd like to get your opinions as well.


--------------------
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
wakingdream
post Jul 14 2008, 10:48 AM
Post #36


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 5853
Joined: 18-August 06
From: Guelph, Ontario
Member No.: 13336





QUOTE
Although my country isn't run by Westerners - we'd call doing something like that:

"Responsibility" or "Your duty"

And really, that goes for anywhere we visit, not just Thailand. This thread has been a bit hardcore, but that's good. People need to think about this kind of thing, b'/c honestly, I don't think enough people realize the consequences of their actions.


--------------------
~Susie

'Yesterday's the past and tomorrow's the future. Today is a gift - which is why they call it the present.'
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
starlagurl
post Jul 14 2008, 11:04 AM
Post #37


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 14509
Joined: 5-November 07
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 103914




Yeah, I have been talking to him on Facebook. He seems really angry, and I can't talk him out of deleting his account *sad*


--------------------
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
wakingdream
post Jul 14 2008, 11:11 AM
Post #38


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 5853
Joined: 18-August 06
From: Guelph, Ontario
Member No.: 13336




That really sucks.


--------------------
~Susie

'Yesterday's the past and tomorrow's the future. Today is a gift - which is why they call it the present.'
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
starlagurl
post Jul 14 2008, 11:14 AM
Post #39


Rolling Stone
********

Group: Local Expert
Posts: 14509
Joined: 5-November 07
From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 103914




Yep. I feel bad because I had a part in it by making flippant comments...as usual...


--------------------
User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
bangkokrandy
post Sep 22 2008, 09:51 AM
Post #40


Drifter
*

Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: 13-February 06
Member No.: 509




Back to the original topic, if I may: I was in Pai in February of this year. After being there for two or three days, I came down with this Pai sickness. Diarrhea and a feeling of being about to vomit. After going to the local hospital to get myself fixed up, I started talking to other tourists in the town - and almost without exception, everyone else I spoke to was suffering from the same thing. As soon as I got back home to Bangkok, I made a posting on the Lonely Planet Thorntree forum to see if anybody could shed any light on the matter for me. Nobody was able to, with most people putting it down to being in a foreign environment, etc. (I have been living in Thailand for the past 13 years, so I'm not a newcomer to the local environment.)

The fact remains, however, that I - along with nearly every other foreigner that I spoke to in Pai this past February - was ill with varying degrees of diarrhea and vomiting. To this day I still don't know the cause. But there's something very strange going on there. If anybody could isolate the cause of this illness, I would be happy to hear about it. In the meantime, if you go there, pay attention to what you eat and drink to see if you might be able to find the cause when you get sick. Because if things are still like they were when I was there, you will get sick.

User is offlinePM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

3 Pages V < 1 2 3 >
Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic

 


- Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 1st August 2014 - 02:22 AM
Top Hotel Destinations in Thailand

Ayutthaya Hotels
Bangkok Hotels
Cha-am Hotels
Chaweng Hotels
Chiang Mai Hotels
Chiang Rai Hotels
Chon Buri Hotels
Hat Yai Hotels
Hua Hin Hotels
Kanchanaburi Hotels
Kathu Hotels
Khao Lak Hotels
Khon Kaen Hotels
Ko Lanta Hotels
Ko Phangan Hotels
Ko Phi Phi Don Hotels
Ko Tao Hotels
Krabi Hotels
Lampang Hotels
Loei Hotels
Mae Hong Son Hotels
Nakorn Ratchasima Hotels
Nakorn Si Thammarat Hotels
Narathiwat Hotels
Nonthaburi Hotels
Pai Hotels
Patong Hotels
Pattaya Hotels
Phangnga Hotels
Phetchaburi Hotels
Phitsanulok Hotels
Rawai Hotels
Rayong Hotels
Songkhla Hotels
Sukhothai Hotels
Surat Thani Hotels
Tak Hotels
Trang Hotels
Trat Hotels
Udon Thani Hotels



Copyright © 1997 - 2011 TravelPod.com, a proud founder of travel blogs on the web. All Rights Reserved.