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> Why people stay away from the USA
starlagurl
post Jun 9 2008, 09:40 AM
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*sigh* Yeah it's really depressing...are there any answers? What can you do in your day to day life to try and help the situation?


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mmbcross
post Jun 9 2008, 02:43 PM
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I refuse to have any friends that possess guns. To my mind only cowards own guns.


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starlagurl
post Jun 9 2008, 02:43 PM
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Even hunters?


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netravel
post Jun 9 2008, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE(mmbcross @ Jun 9 2008, 02:43 PM) *

I refuse to have any friends that possess guns. To my mind only cowards own guns.


Hmmm, well, I have alll sorts of friends. I do NOT allow guns in my home, nor in the homes of places my children used to visit (they are older now.) I would discourage friends from having guns, but as Louise pointed out...there are Hunters, and in the Midwest US They are quiet common.

I recently read there is more gun related crime in South Africa than America. Trying to find that article again, but also read one that crime itself per 1,000 population is Higher in England.

Not to defend the US. There is a lot of killing, too much. I say in every day life we can become more educated about guns and crime, and EDUCATE [i] our children.

Again, just my 2 cents worth

Veronica


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starlagurl
post Jun 10 2008, 08:30 AM
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Yeah, it's a tough call... it calls for some balance... and it's balanced people like you who help improve the image of the U.S.


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mmbcross
post Jun 10 2008, 11:31 AM
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Sorry about that, but to my mind guns are made to kill, be it humans or animals. I cannot see any amusement in shooting animals. I sincerely doubt if gun deaths are higher in South Africa than in the US, of that there is more crime in the UK. I may be wrong, so I would be interested to read the article. Here is an interesting, albeit somewhat outdated discussion.
http://time-blog.com/swampland/2007/04/gun...not_likely.html


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starlagurl
post Jun 10 2008, 11:51 AM
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Yeah, I don't see how people get enjoyment out of it. But there is a fringe minority (e.g. natives) who live and die by their rifle.


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laorfamily
post Jun 10 2008, 12:19 PM
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From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Statistics


The National Center for Policy Analysis, a conservative think tank, reported the following statistics:[98]

New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later, the murder rate was up 46% and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.
In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures, and its murder rate tripled from a low of 2.4 per 100,000 in 1968 to 7.2 by 1977.
In 1976, Washington, D.C., enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134% while the national murder rate has dropped 2%.
In addition:

Over 50% of American households own guns, despite government statistics showing the number is approximately 35%, because guns not listed on any government roll were not counted during the gathering of data.[99]
Evanston, Illinois, a Chicago suburb of 75,000 residents, became the largest town to ban handgun ownership in September 1982 but experienced no decline in violent crime.
Among the 15 states with the highest homicide rates, 10 have restrictive or very restrictive gun laws.[100]
Twenty percent of U.S. homicides occur in four cities with just 6% of the population—New York, Chicago, Detroit and Washington, D.C.—and each has (or, in the case of Detroit, had until 2001) a virtual prohibition on private handguns.
UK banned private ownership of most handguns in 1997, previously held by an estimated 57,000 people—0.1% of the population.[101] Since 1998, the number of people injured by firearms in England and Wales has more than doubled.[102] In 2005-06, of 5,001 such injuries, 3,474 (69%) were defined as "slight," and a further 965 (19%) involved the "firearm" being used as a blunt instrument. Twenty-four percent of injuries were caused with air weapons, and 32% with "imitation firearms" (including BB guns and soft air weapons).[103] Since 1998, the number of fatal shootings has varied between 49 and 97, and was 50 in 2005.
Australia forced the surrender of nearly 650,000 personal firearms in 1997. A study published in 2001[104] shows a 47% decrease of firearms related deaths, but also reveals an overall rise in non-firearm related violent crime[not in citation given].
Violent crime accelerated in Jamaica after handguns were banned.[105]
The FBI's annual Uniform Crime Report ranking of cities over 40,000 in population by violent crime rates (per 100,000 population) finds that the ten cities with the highest violent crime rates for 2003 include three cities in the very strict state of New Jersey, one in the fairly restrictive state of Massachusetts, whereas the rest have recently adopted laws that allow for the carrying of a handgun with a permit


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laorfamily
post Jun 10 2008, 12:26 PM
Post #29


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"gun laws have played an important role in reducing crime rates in the US.
Since 1986, more than 25 states have passed new laws encouraging responsible citizens to carry concealed handguns. As a result, the numbers of armed Americans in malls and in their cars has grown to almost 3 million men and women.
As surprising as it is to the media, these new laws have caused violent crime rates to drop, including homicide rates. In his scholarly book, More Guns, Less Crime, Professor John Lott shows how violent crime has fallen faster in those states that have introduced concealed carry laws than in the rest of the US (Lott 2000). His study is the most comprehensive analysis of American crime data ever completed. He shows that criminals are rational enough to fear being shot by armed civilians. "

One thing we, as travelers and me as head of house hold, have to admit - there are very bad people out there.
Those people aren't afraid of going to jail, aren't afraid of the police, and are not afraid of getting beaten up.
Do you know what they are afraid of?
Walking into a house and finding a 50 year old housewife pointing a gun to their head.

As this post noted, gun control does nothing but takes the legal guns out of responsible people's hands.
I am, however, in favor of much more stringent criteria of recieving a gun. A serious back ground check, a mandatory safety class, and being able to pass a shooting range test yearly.


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lraleigh
post Jun 10 2008, 01:33 PM
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BUT:

"The level of Canadian travel to the United States observed in the past six months has been the highest since 1998," Statistics Canada reported. frantics.gif hug.gif

IT isn't crime, as crime is falling fast in the US. Aside from gun related crimes (down 50%), crime in the US is similar to other developed countries. I know America can be violent as I've worked in one of the most violent of them all, where the neighbor of our community garden was shot.

Read Bomb the Suburbs by Upski for an interesting take on all this "US dangerous place stuff" (Upski crashed on my couch as he was walking in all the most "dangerous" places in America at night, to prove they weren't that dangerous). I've shed my blood as well because of a racial hate crime, but have forgiven.

Could be the border control folks, but...

Things go up. Things go down. And the US travel industry is large both with both foreign and domestic travelers. Most of the growth will be in the newbees, not in the US or Canada or France. I'd guess Eastern Europe tourism is really growing, by contrast.

Blame the media. devil.png

Looking at Travelpods, most travelers go from city to city, thinking they can see the US this way...Of course, you can know what the cities are like from this, but some of the best of America is outside the cities in the countryside.

And there are plenty of people from all countries of the world. Met an American in Egypt who was Palestinian for example. Over 10% of the country are foreign-born.

Somehow, I detect an anti-American bias in how this thread was presented, hmmmmmm. That's ok, I can understand that.

BUT I could easily ask: Why people stay away from Canada? Are they jerks? Why are Germans scared to travel to Canada? Do they have crass attitudes? Do they molest sheep? crying_anim02.gif sick.png

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/05/20/travel.html

I won't ask that question, however, because its not a fair question if you're a Canadian. All countries have their trouble-makers and their gurus and their gems and their animal buggerers and those people who will become your friends.

That said, boundaries are pointless in so many ways and talk like this is really counter-productive to travel and understanding (as are some difficult border guards). America definitely needs some help in the karma department for sure, but let's not hide behind easily-manipulated statistics...

Ok...all that over with, whenever I'm settled, ya'll can crash on my couch. (I don't own a gun)

peace. hug.gif
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laorfamily
post Jun 10 2008, 02:24 PM
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lraleigh - on the nose.

Also, people forget that the "United States" is actually 50 countries with common currency and lax trade agreements.

So now if we take said article and group all the Englis, Irish, Scottish, German, Italian, Spanish and French into one group we'll get a much different picture.


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mmbcross
post Jun 10 2008, 03:22 PM
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Regrettably statistics prove that a 50 year old housewife pointing a gun to their head is much more likely to shoot herself or a family member over the course of her lifetime than any armed or unarmed intruder.

I know, you can use statistics to prove anything, but I feel much safer in a McDonalds in London than in Los Angeles.


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laorfamily
post Jun 10 2008, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE(mmbcross @ Jun 10 2008, 04:22 PM) *

Regrettably statistics prove that a 50 year old housewife pointing a gun to their head is much more likely to shoot herself or a family member over the course of her lifetime than any armed or unarmed intruder.



Right, I agree.
Which brings me back to my point about taking mandatory yearly classes.


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mmbcross
post Jun 10 2008, 10:31 PM
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I agree. If all gun owners had to take a test just like car drivers do, I would feel much safer. Yearly refresher courses would be even better, but a hard sell I'm afraid.


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netravel
post Jun 11 2008, 03:19 AM
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Here is one of the articles I read. Statistics were in the BBC.

"According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.18 And according to a United Nations study, British citizens are more likely to become a victim of crime than are people in the United States. The 2000 report shows that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States."

Another great site with chart is Gun statistics Note the County Population along with the gun related death rate.

I will look up some other sites for another post. One interesting thing is though, the VAST majority of US Gun related crime is by and on African American People. I do not recall any time in recent history where and international traveller was killed by an American.

All I am saying is look at the facts...ALL of the facts. It is easy to bend statistics to any stance one wants to take.


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mmbcross
post Jun 11 2008, 06:25 AM
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I have to admit that I am surprised and saddened by this report. When I lived in Britain, use of guns was almost unheard of, even by the police.

Although I am vehemently against easy access to guns, I do not feel threatened in the US, nor should any tourist be put off by this aspect. I don't go to McDonalds for reasons other than safety. Nevertheless, the more guns that are available to the populace means that there is a much higher chance of being involved in a random shooting, which are quite commonplace here.
Here's what I mean:
The United States is a large modern country with devolving inner cities. There are more than 200 million guns in the possession of Americans. Most violent acts in the States are the result of robberies, domestic disputes and drug-related violence. Terrorist acts, ranging from the killing of abortionist doctors to the bombing of the World Trade Center, are highly publicized but not considered a real threat to travelers. The threat of robbery or violent crime in inner cities and some tourist areas is real and should be taken seriously. Travel in America is considered safe, and danger is confined to random violence and inner cities. Those seeking adventure can find it in a New Orleans bar at five in the morning or strolling through South Central L.A. after midnight.

Here is a dated but pretty grim report on violent America:
http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dplaces/unitedst/index.htm
As you say, statistics can prove anything, and we can go on ad infinitum in his respect.


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starlagurl
post Jun 11 2008, 09:12 AM
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200 million guns...how many people live there??? 300 million?


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mmbcross
post Jun 11 2008, 09:58 AM
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Yes, that does seem a bit far fetched. The US population is 304,311,342


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laorfamily
post Jun 11 2008, 10:40 AM
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QUOTE(mmbcross @ Jun 11 2008, 07:25 AM) *

Nevertheless, the more guns that are available to the populace means that there is a much higher chance of being involved in a random shooting, which are quite commonplace here.


I don't know about that, in Israel almost every person has a gun in their home and many have handguns, yet random shootings are almost unheard of.

In Kennesaw, Georgia, by law, every head of house hold must have a gun (which cannot be used or brought off the property), break ins, theaft, robberies etc. in that town are almost zero.

"In fact, more than 25 years after the ban, not a single resident of Kennesaw has been involved in a fatal shooting - as a victim, attacker or defender. There has been one firearm related murder but not from a resident of Kennesaw. Since the ordinance, no child has ever been injured with a firearm in Kennesaw. Crime dropped after the ordinance and the city has maintained an exceptionally low crime rate ever since, even with the population swelling from 5,000 in 1982 to approximately 30,000 today. The truth is crime has plummeted and population has soared."

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/7...for.html?cat=17


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mmbcross
post Jun 11 2008, 12:04 PM
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I am a home owner. Does that mean I would be obliged to have a gun in Kenneshaw, in spite of my opinion? This surely must go against the constitution. No seems to be able to ban guns, but we can force people to posses them, whether they like it or not. It looks like the NRA runs the city of Kenneshaw.

I live in Miami Springs, population 13,422, median income $50,000. I can only find this record for 2003 The number of violent crimes recorded by the FBI in 2003 was 80. The number of murders and homicides was 0. The violent crime rate was 5.7 per 1,000 people.. No one is forced to tote a gun in Miami Springs, and there were no homicides. To be honest, I've lived here for 20 years and I cannot recall a homicide. We are located on the north perimeter of Miami International Airport, so we are not nearly as insulated as Kennesaw. Virtually all of the crime in Miami Springs is along 36th. Street, bordering the airport.

I also found this astounding fact online Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day. Unless we are still living in Dodge City, I find this statistic extremely had to swallow.

By the way, you can't compare the circumstances of Israel to the USA.




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