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[exploreamerica]

Thanks...
Yeah I'm not sure what to think about it really. It's important to remember the Holocaust and everything, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable going to Auschwitz.

I realize yes, there are bad things happening in the world, but I'm not sure that memorializing things over and over again contribute to the solution. All we'll get is just an abundance of memorials and "fill in the blank historical remembrance day".

It seems to me that there is a growing culture of "memorializing" happening. I don't know what it means, but it doesn't look good to me. It seems to be painting history in black and white, and that's never beneficial for anyone, the victims or the criminals.

Regardless of how youthhink it may be portrayed, the iimportant things is that certain things get remembered at all. You say enough is enough to Holocaust memorials, but why does history keep repeating itself. Why do there continue to be countires that continue to commit genocide?

I don't know if it is for sure but I heard that Germany is constructing two new memorials: one for murdered gypsies and the other for murdered homosexuals during the Holocaust. Whatever you may feel about too many mmemorials, this is the first I have heard of a memorial like either of those and I would assume that those people must feel a great sense of a pride that iin less than a century a country that tried to wipe them off the planet is now paying its respect.

Finally, children are constantly being born. Lets hope the next generation is better than our own. How will they the past ifthey are not shown. It makes me sad at how manny of my students ask what was the Holocaust. What's worse is the people who reject that there even was one. And there continues to be Holocaust around the globe persecuted against all races.

Ok, I am done on my soap box and I will now head to a more laid back forum. Ill be getting hammered in a few for my bday so maybe Ill post there.

[starlagurl]

That's the point of what I'm saying really. I'm saying that there is SO MUCH of this memorialization going on, and history continues to repeat itself. Even though we spend all this money on all these museums, it doesn't seem to change too much. Are there even statistics that can measure this kind of thing anyway? I don't think so.

So what are we supposed to do??? The more things get analyzed, the more confused you become, just in general, I believe this is true.

Also: Yeah, I know the "youth are ignorant". But, they always are, so there's nothing new there.

[lraleigh]

I think the memorials have some value, even though history repeats itself to a certain extent. Their value lies in their definition: "Memorial." With its roots in remembering.

Remembering doesn't guarantee that there won't be future calamities, but at least memorials remind us that humans aren't perfect and have committed many crimes against themselves. A memorial can mean many things to many different people and in some cases it may even lead people to be more angry about a situation and cause more atrocities in retribution, though I don't think that's why they're built.

[exploreamerica]

I think the value is two-fold.

First, regardless of whether history repeats itself, the monuments serve as respect to those they aim to honor. For example, I pointed out that Germany is constructing their 1st memorials to gypsies and homosexuals. I think there is some vindication that this country tried to wipe them off the face of the planet and less than a century later are commemorating them.

Second, we can all agree that history repeats and cultures continue to commit genocide. But if even someone is being reached then it is beneficial. Without memorials then youth would be more ignorant (is that possible??!!??). As many people that remain ignorant, someone is being reached that wouldn't have previously. lets hope that will be the next vindicator of peace and someone willing to make a differene in others by fighting for equality and justice (ok I know that sounds corny and like the premise to the next Superman movie, but I want to hope it is the truth).

[starlagurl]

Here's the last part of the dark tourism series:

http://www.vagabondish.com/dark-tourism-round-up/

I think it’s worth each of us considering how dark we are and what kind of dark tourism is personally acceptable and fits within our own value systems. In their 2007 Bluelist, guide book gurus Lonely Planet discussed the issue of dark tourism and most notably published a five-level Dark-O-Meter so you could gauge just how dark your traveling intentions were. At the time it amused me, but I couldn’t agree with it, as visiting the concentration camp remains at Auschwitz apparently put me in the “Pitch Black” category, the fourth strongest on the list. Still, I was happy to have avoided being labeled “Too Dark”, which involved visiting catastrophe sites before they were ready for visitors or (imagine this) traveling to witness public hangings or other executions. How dark are you and your travels? Think about it while I end the dark tourism series with a classic round-up: awards time.

[lraleigh]

What immediately came to mind was that we are focusing here only on travel, but most of this dark stuff is on the internet and tv in profusion...hanging of Saddam and more. What about watching the OJ trials. Yeah, I know this is a travel forum, but it applies more than ever, because the general perception is that our society is becoming more sensational and paparatzi-like with things that perhaps deserve more respect and contemplation. This is where any day, I'd advocate visiting memorials and such if your reason for doing so (i.e. your heart) was in the right place. I thınk judging people with a "meter" ıs essentiall useless. As an example, a son visits Auschwitz to see his mother's place of death. Is that "too dark?" There are fewer reasons, of course, to visit a public hanging.

[wakingdream]

Just regarding the Saddam.... geez, we've taken entertainment to a whole new level i think is completely off the radar. AND, we don't even think or acknowledge actually, how unconstructive, to say the least, watching this kind of thing is. Since when did this kind of stuff become okay???? What is the real purpose? I can fully understand the purpose and needs memporializing fills, but hangings and such?

[starlagurl]

Yeah, hangings seem like a giant step backwards...

[starlagurl]

Here's something to add to the dark tourism topic:

There is a "Body Farm" in Tennessee!

You can go there and learn about the science of decaying bodies! They stuff donated bodies in suitcases, bury them in shallow graves, or just watch as they decay, lying on the ground.

Would you visit a place like this???

I certainly wouldn't, can you imagine the smell of a place like this???

[kitkatgo]

Yeah, I have seen quite a few "dark" places/memorials. I do have a dark side. But I have to say, I don't specifically seek these places out because of it--you know, it's not like I'm specifically LOOKING for dark places.

I think the only time I do, it's for "ghost tours"--nearly pure entertainment with some questionable history of the area thrown in. I've only done that a couple of times, but it was a lot of fun when we did it in Prague around the Old Town Square.

But on a more serious note, I'd say the most sobering place I have been would be the Peace Museum/Memorials in Hiroshima, Japan. I think that got to me the most. We went there with some Japanese colleagues (who had never been there before either), and we were all very quiet for awhile. My children were with us, and it was very potent for them as well.

No matter how you look at it, people are drawn to battlefields, beheading sites, prisons, memorials, etc. For me personally, I like learning the history...and I guess it's just more interesting when bad things have happened there. And I do think it's important for people to learn about these things so that history doesn't repeat itself (or is less likely any way).

Just my opinion,

[starlagurl]

I'm really divided on this issue, for exactly those reasons you say, Kit. When I'm sitting here at home, I say, ohhhh that's so morbid, why would you want to go see that?

But when I'm actually in the place where these things have happened, of course, I go and see them...

[nomadic]

Well done ... at last I have stumbled across a forum where people are having a real discussion, not just sharing pizza experiences or discussing the merits of travelling with babies. To think, I thought this was going to be about the Singapore Night Zoo.

I have mixed views on this. Having lived in some of the worlds more difficult places - I was aware of war tourists in Iraq and poorists in India, but I was also very aware that although I was "doing a job" and could justify my own presence in such environments, there was an element of the voyeur within, which I wasn’t always comfortable with. As Thomas Hardy wrote “if a path to better there be, then it begins with a full look at the worst”. That said, I am not about to climb aboard a coach tour of Soweto.

[starlagurl]

Hey there are lots of "real discussions" in the Traveler's Conscience forum. Have you seen it?

That is a really interesting job that you have been doing, and I believe it, you must feel conflicted about surrounding yourself with poverty, while not being impoverished yourself. How do you deal?

[starlagurl]

Well...I think that would kind of count as dark tourism... it depends on how you see yourself in the situation. An outsider might say you are a tourist, while you say you are helping a difficult situation. See what I'm saying?

[kjonline]

Like kitkatgo, I've also been to Hiroshima. It was more part of a larger Japan tour than a specifically chosen destination, but I remember it quite distinctly from the rest of the trip. Hard to explain -- though I'm sure most of you will understand what I mean -- but I just got this "vibe" from the place. It was so much more... calm than the rest of the country.

But what's really interesting is instead of prominently remembering the morbid feeling of the museums, the place actually gave me a bit of hope for humanity. As we were touring, we came across all sorts of collection plates for various reasons relating to the bomb. They were just sitting out in the open, unguarded, and still full of money. I read in the newspapers back here in Canada about people stealing from Salvation Army collection boxes but it seems no-one would dare take money from a charity so close to ground zero. Or maybe it's just the kind of people they are as opposed to us over here. I dunno, but it made me feel good to see it.

[nomadic]

Hey there are lots of "real discussions" in the Traveler's Conscience forum. Have you seen it?

That is a really interesting job that you have been doing, and I believe it, you must feel conflicted about surrounding yourself with poverty, while not being impoverished yourself. How do you deal?

I "deal" because I have made myself part of the solution, not the problem (or at least tried to). Being in Iraq was a huge catalyst for change within me and has driven me to actively and intelligently involve myself with work that aims to bring about change and promote peace. The isn't about going on commemorative marches or "raising awareness" - it is about doing a lifes work towards good.

Wow. Quite a rant. I will of course seek out the other forums of "real discussions" my sincere apologies for dissing Travelpod.

[starlagurl]

but I just got this "vibe" from the place. It was so much more... calm than the rest of the country.

Was it because there is less life there? I don't think many people or animals for that matter, want to live in Hiroshima now, do they? Or am I wrong on this one?

I "deal" because I have made myself part of the solution, not the problem (or at least tried to). Being in Iraq was a huge catalyst for change within me and has driven me to actively and intelligently involve myself with work that aims to bring about change and promote peace. The isn't about going on commemorative marches or "raising awareness" - it is about doing a lifes work towards good.

Wow. Quite a rant. I will of course seek out the other forums of "real discussions" my sincere apologies for dissing Travelpod.

Yeah, that's really cool, I'm glad you've found your place.

It's OK, I wasn't mad or anything, just trying to direct you to the discussions you will enjoy more.

[kitkatgo]

but I just got this "vibe" from the place. It was so much more... calm than the rest of the country.

Was it because there is less life there? I don't think many people or animals for that matter, want to live in Hiroshima now, do they? Or am I wrong on this one?

No, it's quite a big city, lovely too. Thriving and full of life. And I think the people there feel very strongly about the message for peace. A portion of the museum was devoted for that very purpose.

[starlagurl]

Hmmm...weird... I would not want to live there...what about the latent cancer-causing chemicals? They don't just go away...

[kjonline]

A few of the chemicals I use in my aquarium contain on the label something along this lines of "contains an agent known in the state of California to cause cancer", and I'm still here and in essentially peak health.

Anyway, I'm no bomb expert, but I'm not certain atom bombs leave lasting radioactivity. Only those there for the initial detonation and for a brief time afterward would be affected. But I could be entirely wrong on that. At any rate, it is indeed a pretty large city and there were plenty of other people around.