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[Paul]

Hmmm. I am no expert on this "temple". My opinions are based on: two visits to it with a gap of a year or two in between. A number of talks with various Thai conservationists and National Park staff. A number of discussions over a number of years with Thai Buddhist monks including staying in temples and studies on Buddhism and particularly Tibetan Buddhism with senior Buddhist monks.

At best, this place is keeping orphaned tigers in safe environment. In the future they MAY get a bigger piece of land to roam around on, but still incredibly small compared to the natural area they need. Perhaps also it is developing interest in tigers amongst people.

But that is it. It is not saving the forests needed to save the tigers in Thailand. It is not stopping the poaching which is needed to save the tigers in Thailand. It is not pushing the Thai public or the international public to save the tiger's environment, stop the poaching, better equip and maintain the national parks.

At worst the temple is keeping tigers in small cages and perhaps even promoting that concept and the capture of tiger cubs. It is treating the animals like a zoo exhibit (not just tigers - they have other animals such as gibbons in tiny cages as well) to be gauked at for the amusement of humans. The Abbott is perhaps making a huge profit and making a mockery of Buddhism. The concept of keeping animals in cages for profit is greatly enhanced by this place. Money intended to go to saving tigers is going here instead of to the more professional organisations that are actually working to save the forests and stop the poaching.

Yes, some National Park staff are corrupt and there is still rampant poaching going on in National Parks. But there are great National Park rangers doing their best as well. They are well under staffed and well under funded. They lack equipment and support. There is little interest in the Thai public on this issue at the moment as there are so many other issues needing to be addressed and the politicians couldn't give a stuff as it doesn't involve them filling their pockets. There are numerous other more professional organisations trying to help. A quick search of something like "save tigers in Thailand" will reveal some. These organisations need help.

If this 'monk' wanted to help the tigers I would suggest he'd be far better off moving himself and his followers into the forests and into the villages on the outskirts of the national parks. He could do a lot of good talking to people in these areas and giving his support. In the early 80s logging was banned in Thailand and it was monks who helped achieve that when they went into the jungle and consecrated trees so as the Buddhist loggers couldn't cut them down. Thai Buddhism has moved a long way into materialism since that time, and this "monk" is one of the best examples of that. It is a shame. Potentially the Sangha could have a great impact on such an issue. But just making huge sums of money by locking up orphan tigers isn't helping much.

[starlagurl]

It's such a crazy dilemma *sigh*

[Paul]

Oh, Kanchana mentioned that this "temple" has been in the Thai news lately also. She said a poll was run on peoples thoughts on it and mainly people were against it. Years ago they believed the "monk" and listened to him, but they have seen him making so much money and the cages for the tigers get no bigger, and now he has little support or trust from many Thais also. They were also upset the prices for Thai people to visit keep going up and are perhaps as expensive as they are for Westerners and so he seems to be making it a rich only event which leads Thais to think he is in it for the money.

[wakingdream]

Oh, Kanchana mentioned that this "temple" has been in the Thai news lately also. She said a poll was run on peoples thoughts on it and mainly people were against it. Years ago they believed the "monk" and listened to him, but they have seen him making so much money and the cages for the tigers get no bigger, and now he has little support or trust from many Thais also. They were also upset the prices for Thai people to visit keep going up and are perhaps as expensive as they are for Westerners and so he seems to be making it a rich only event which leads Thais to think he is in it for the money.

Thanks for that Paul. Good to know from a national's point of view.

[Paul]

I just read in a Thai newspaper that it is estimated that 90% of the tigers living in Thailand are living in captivity. It is believed that there is around 150 - 200 tigers left in the wild.


Those that are living in the wild are in isolated pockets. Generally it is thought that a population needs about 500 as a minimum to guarantee survival. That number is the minimum needed to keep a healthy breeding stock and to survive droughts, diseases etc. It seems clear that unless drastic action occurs NOW, that wild tigers in Thailand are unlikely to last the next 20 - 30 years.

Hmmm, then we could consider the Asian elephant and many many other species of animals that are on the verge of extinction in South East Asia. In fact whole eco systems are under threat from dams, over farming, pollution, industry, city expansion, etc.

As a visitor what can you do? Don't support activities that hurt the animals or the environment. Do support activities that are trying to help them. Do show an interest. Don't just come here and spend money at a ridiculous rate without any thought on what effect that is having on culture, people, ways of life, animals, the environment. Why stay in a expensive resort that had to clear the forest and mangrove and the locals out to provide your luxury, when you could stay in a tent or in a home stay and experience the local way of life and natural environment.

It is really beautiful here, but it is disappearing fast. The same could be said for most of the world - except the bits where a lot of the beautiful cultures and environments are already gone. Clearly governments and business aren't going to solve these issues. The people must. So please do your bit.

[wakingdream]

That's really great advice to take. Thoughtless spending does have a major affect on a country after time. I think no matter where you are you should always be aware of the long and short term affects of what you choose to do.

The wildlife situation in Thailand seems so dismal. It's awful.

[Paul]

The wildlife situation in Thailand seems so dismal. It's awful.

I totally agree. It is looking pretty bad. But I don't want people to think it is Thailand alone.

Actually there is a huge part of Thailand set aside as National Parks - more than the average in the world. Quite a bit more.

But like almost every country in the world - the government is not interested in wildlife and conservation.

If I compare to Australia - better in some ways and worse in others.

If compared to USA or Europe or much of Africa - I imagine that the damage has already been done. Whereas here - there is still some animals left and some tiny glimmer of hope.

Hmmm, I would have thought Laos would have been a sanctuary for wildlife - but they are currently very quickly hunting and exporting endangered species to China. Also - although much of Laos is a beautiful green colour - it is not primary untouched forest / jungle - it has largely been cleared and hunted and farmed by humans.

Anyway, my point is: the situation for wildlife and ecosystems and the environment is in a dismal state on the planet Earth.
How much longer can we go until the whole thing falls apart and we are left with a lifeless planet????? Perhaps we'll soon find out.

[trishigirl]

All of you who have been here, shame on you. I hope promoting the ongoing cruelty and exploitation of animals was worth it for your photo.

[starlagurl]

Trishi, have you seen the tigers yourself? What makes you say that?

[wakingdream]

All of you who have been here, shame on you. I hope promoting the ongoing cruelty and exploitation of animals was worth it for your photo.

Sometimes it takes people making a mistake and learning from it to make the biggest impact on them. Not everyone is aware that visiting the tigers has such a negative impact. Sure, we could argue that they should be aware, but there are alot of things to learn in life, especially when traveling overseas. Hopefully the poeple who have visited have realized the sitaution leaves alot to be desired and they don't promote it by telling others to visit. I personally believe you should always do some investigation into the place you choose to visit to see where you're money is really going, but that too is something that's learned by experience. People make mistakes but rather than feling shame, which isn'tvery productive, hopefully they learn from their mistake. I think it's people's natural curiosity that leads them there and many realize what's actually happening afterwards. I've never been but that's my take. And then there are those who really don't give a hoot and know exactly what's happening. I won't bother saying what i think about that.

I'm a pretty huge animal activist myself and have done tons of volunteer work all over. Educating poeple is a monumental priority. We can't expect everyone to know everything about everything. Some people might think that because the monks, who generally have very kind and caring reputations, would do everything in their power to treat the tigers as well as possible. But, even they lack some of the education necessary to make the right decisions in this particular situation. Or, maybe they are aware of what they're doing and have become greedy but arguing symantics isn't the point. Learning is. So if you've been, don't beat yourself up over it but take a moment to learn from the situation and realize how contributing and supporting these kinds of things is more a detriment to the country than anything.

[trishigirl]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...ger-temple.html

Finally someone had the guts to do something about this 'temple'...can't believe it's still operating.

Also, the authorities know how bad this place is and on on a previous occasion had actually confiscated the tigers, but nowhere existed that could take them, so they remained at the "Temple". This seems to have changed now, so now just hoping for a speedy relocation to the new sanctuary!!

[wakingdream]

Ahhh, there's always some kind of "red tape".

Nice find on the article In some ways I think some monks are somewhat clueless and somewhat not. Just remember that animal conservation by nationals hasn't always been as prevalent as it has been in more developed countries. I couldn't keep stressing the lack of education there has been about wildlife conservation in the past. Thailand's catching up though and so many people are making a big effort in the country. There is still mass mistreatment of animals and it's happening all over the world.

If only we could save them all.....the best thing is to know change is happening. Slowly but surely the undeniable importance of wildlife and clean environments is being more and more recognized around the world. Sure, we're exposed to it all the time, but let's think about all those rural villages and areas where there is abundant wildlife. Ofcourse many endangered species are killed, bought and sold etc. Not excusing it, but understanding of the problems, rather than anger, helps to begin solving these kinds of issues....

From the NG article;

"Edwin Wiek leads the nonprofit rescue group Wildlife Friends of Thailand.

"I was quite amazed that they're putting on a show, parading these tigers around as if they were rescued from the wild, which is not true—they were taken from a tiger farm," Wiek said."

This is who I've done I've done all my wildlife refuge volunteer work with. Kinda cool he's quoted in the article. He can be a really harsh dude, but he truly cares about the cause.

Thanks for the update Trishgirl

[Paul]

A similar story was recently in the Bangkok Post too.

-------------------------------------------------
I don't necessarily agree that Thailand is "catching up".

I seem to remember it is USA, Australia, Canada, etc that is causing the most destruction to my planet. Not Thailand.

We are now going through a period of mass extinctions almost never known of before. Each country seems to be playing its part. But again, USA and other massive consumers of the planet seem to be playing a bigger part than others.


As for Thais and their treatment of animals. Where I lived in Bangkok I could easily, every day see people being exceptionally kind to animals. Giving food, water, shelter etc to stray animals.
Walking around an Australian city I certainly wouldn't see that sort of activity so easily.

The Karen - the biggest "hill tribe" group in Thailand had strict laws governing their interaction with the natural world to ensure they were a part of it. Those beliefs are being destroyed by Christianity and Capitalism. And poverty.

The Thais, long time Buddhists have also had a long history of tolerance and kindness. My wife will not kill anything. His Majesty the King of Thailand does not kill anything. You try finding an Australian or American or Canadian that doesn't kill anything - almost impossible. More than likely they will immediately kill the first small insects that gets near them without any feeling of remorse.

Catching up??????

Again - the Thais seem to be loosing this compassionate attitude as they embrace greed and capitalism. Or perhaps as they fear more about "poverty".
They aren't catching up to your good behaviours. They are catching up to your bad ones.


And the beautiful natural parts of the world being more recognised??? - yes, but only because they are as rare as diamonds. We have destroyed almost all of them.

[thellie]

the biggest cause of, probably the only cause of, animal decimation/extinction are humans. and the more there are, the worse animals suffer... it's all very well talking about looking after animals, but that will be an ever decreasing circle as populations increase, need for land explodes, and wars break out. innocents and animals are usually the biggest casualties.

so i have a solution
as animal lovers are, per se, the ones who wish to help most, they should make the ultimate sacrifice and top themselves... but being pragmatic and forward thinking, they should also each take a hunter through the pearly gates with them (that's another discussion right there...)... this would lower the world's population of humans, thereby increasing the chances of survival of many of the most endangered species on the planet.

...am i a genius or what?

[wakingdream]

I don't necessarily agree that Thailand is "catching up".

Well, when you argue it that way, sure, no. In terms of educating people about the importance of wildlife and the environment, yes, I think so. The philosophy and approach of kindness is inherentlyl tied to Buddhism. The education about the animals and environment is a newer (in a broad sense) thing. The influence of beliefs coming from China and other countries who buy pieces of animals etc has been a big influence on SEA countries in the past and is still a fairly widespread concern. Poverty has alot to do with that too. So it's kind of like, what's more important here, feeding my family by selling these skins, or endangered monkeys etc or caring more about the environment around me and what lives in it and how that will affect my families future? Well, my family would have no future anyway if I don't feed them......

Over the years I've found that people (nationals) seem to be more conscious of the problems. Working with wildlife professionals in the country has taught me a little bit anyway. Taking it into a global perspective, yes, we're all destroying the environment. Ofcourse. That's undeniable but not the topic of this thread. I was just talking Thailand and personally yes, I do think there has been an improvement. Take for instance, the many more wildlife refuges and organizations that are in the country over the last few decades. You can't deny that there's certainly more awareness and action than before.

The Thais, long time Buddhists have also had a long history of tolerance and kindness. My wife will not kill anything. His Majesty the King of Thailand does not kill anything. You try finding an Australian or American or Canadian that doesn't kill anything - almost impossible.

I've met plenty of Thais who have a lot of respect for animals, and plenty that don't either. Same with Canadians, who, for the most part have a very large respect for their surrounding environment. Australians and Americans? I really don't know. Whether we'll kill a fly or not, well, that's getting pretty nitty gritty yet is a valid argument as well.

They aren't catching up to your good behaviours. They are catching up to your bad ones.

Hey, I have plenty to say about the West as well, don't take my words the wrong way I can't stress enough that I'm not talking "behaviour" I'm taking education which leads to a much better understanding about how we can all learn to coexist harmoniously. Yes, we in the West have more access to education through many more means, but do we actually utilize it?? And that's where your point lies, no, we don't. Many nations have many tools they don't use. But, if they ever want to see change, they must have the tools to make change happen.

the biggest cause of, probably the only cause of, animal decimation/extinction are humans.

Most definitely.

[Paul]

OK. More clear now.

[wakingdream]

OK. More clear now.

Sometimes I wish we could just talk to each other! There's all these great debates and talks on all these terrific subjects and if you can't talk face to face it just isn't the same!!! Don't get me wrong, the forums are great, but sometimes I feel like I need some face time!

[trishigirl]

From the NG article;

"Edwin Wiek leads the nonprofit rescue group Wildlife Friends of Thailand.

"I was quite amazed that they're putting on a show, parading these tigers around as if they were rescued from the wild, which is not true—they were taken from a tiger farm," Wiek said."

This is who I've done I've done all my wildlife refuge volunteer work with. Kinda cool he's quoted in the article. He can be a really harsh dude, but he truly cares about the cause.

Thanks for the update Trishgirl

Me too, I have just finished volunteering there Amazing place, have felt sad ever since I left

[wakingdream]

From the NG article;

"Edwin Wiek leads the nonprofit rescue group Wildlife Friends of Thailand.

"I was quite amazed that they're putting on a show, parading these tigers around as if they were rescued from the wild, which is not true—they were taken from a tiger farm," Wiek said."

This is who I've done I've done all my wildlife refuge volunteer work with. Kinda cool he's quoted in the article. He can be a really harsh dude, but he truly cares about the cause.

Thanks for the update Trishgirl

Me too, I have just finished volunteering there Amazing place, have felt sad ever since I left

Hey really?? That's cool! I've so loved all the time I've spent there!!! Any news on the elephants? Still the four females? What did you do for them mostly? I also really liked Kao Look Chang for the most part. Ed's wife is a sweetheart too and the rest of the Thais there.