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[uncle_davros]

Should Israel have gone into Lebanon or not ?

[kris]

this will lead to a debate that will never find anyone happy. you could ask 'should have hizbollah crossed the border and kill and kidnap?' 'could israel have bargained a deal of swapping lebanese prisoners before killing innocent civilians?' personally the excuse that they dropped flyers warning people to get out or they'll get killed is pretty weak.


what is your view? you've been to the region.. i haven't

[uncle_davros]

Yes, I have been there, but not to Israel.

Before I go on, I will say this, I am part Jewish

Now, I don't agree with the tactics that Hezbollah use, kidnapping soldiers and trying to force the Israeli Government to do something they never were going to do. Also, fighting the way Israel does, being backed with weapons by the States, I can understand why they have them, but sadly, they have now gone into Baalbek. Hopefully, they will leave the Roman ruins alone as they are magnificent.

I will never agree with a country that kills children. I will never agree with a country that use guns, whilst rocks are being thrown at them.

I hope it ends soon, for the sake of Lebanon, because Lebanon is a great country

[Jessica_CDN]

Hm....the never-ending cycle of blame and violence.

Everyone can always counter one thing with another: Israel shouldn't have gone into Lebanon! But Hezbollah captured one of its soldiers...which they wouldn't have done if Israel hadn't done other things, which they wouldn't have done if......and on and on.

To be quite blunt, I think that Israel is shooting itself in the foot - if some of the people that they bombed weren't extremists, they sure as hell are now after having family members killed! What Israel (and Hezbollah) are doing is not a solution.

[radsolv]

This is just one more reason [Iraq, Afghanistan only the most recent others] why I am ashamed of the country in which I was born.

Jessica CDN is right in that to ask who statted it is a pointless exercise in that it can eventually go back some 10,000 years to Joshua and the battle of Jericho.

It seems Hezbollah badly miscalculated. There had been prisoner exchanges before even under Sharon. But Ohlmert, not having Sharon's military medals and reputation for uncomprimising brutality had to prove he also had large cajones. And he is a man of principle. He would send scores of Israeli soldiers to their death rather than barter for the lives of two soldiers captured, not kidnapped. That has it's own logic, I guess.

And in the exchange of the lives of 'innocent' civilians, a ten to one ratio whould satisfy the blood lust of most Zionists. And there is no comparison of destruction to infrastructure and buildings. And how many uncounted bodies lie beneath that rubble?

The hypocrisy of Bush and Condolizza boggles my mind, but American spin media have managed to sell the US rational to most Americans. The brutal bombing and slaughter goes on because to stop it would be to return to the status quo ante of a relative quietus -- except of course for the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank.

The US screams Syria and Iran must stop supplying Hezbollah with inaccurate rockets with a range of some twenty to forty miles and a payload of some twenty pounds of TNT while the USA is sending major emergency shipments of GPS guided 500 pound plus bunker buster bombs because the IAF is running out of their hugh supply.

Hezbollah very lightly armed is humiliating the vaunted IDF fighting in or behind tanks and armored personnel carriers with lots of close support from the air, F-16s and Apache gunships.. No wonder Israel and USA is demanding they be disarmed before a cease fire agreement.

Obviously I am not a dispassionate observer. But I have been there to Palestine in 2002.. You can read my experiences in my Travel Log under 'radsolv'. I witnessed the arrogance and brutality of the Israeli Occupation Forces and the daily humiliations, curfews, random killings and F-16 and Apache slaughter. All courtesly of US armaments, funding and UN vetoes.

The Israeli version I can get anytime I read a US newspaper or watch TV. I have informed myself on the other side of the coin from various credible sources and have gone to the MidEast to see for myself. I can not be neutral. For fear of Jewish power, the cowardly American Congress, Executive give Israel every thing they want.

Now aren't you sorry you raised this question and asked for opinions?

You might also want to check out Yoram Gellman's TravelPod on his very recent trip to Israel/Palestine and photos of the apartheid wall.

[uncle_davros]

Now aren't you sorry you raised this question and asked for opinions?

No I am not sorry, because this is what a forum is about. A form of debate. It gets people thinking and airing some of what they would like t o say into the open

[Jessica_CDN]

You know, every time I feel myself becoming a bit biased, I just read another report on the "other" side....it brings things back into perspective - every attrocity from one side can easily be matched by another...it's a sad state of affairs, but it's true.

But then again, it's a tad easier to be unbiased when you're not Jewish, Israeli, Palestinian or Arab!

So here's another question - how do you guys think this will turn out? I've seen lots of newspapers / magazines with "World War III" on the cover......thoughts?

[uncle_davros]

I can only hope thst it won't. If the the three wise monkeys, George, Tony and John, get their way, who knows what will happen, but this is not good for the area, considering, from our perspective of being people who do like to go to foreign countries, and visit sites, we will not be wanted in these countries

[radsolv]

Wow. this topic did get a bit of a response. And maybe off track.

"I wouldn't mind a Euro flag. Or what about just some world
flag? It's about time we whipped one of those up."
--- siscri

Yes, Have thought of for some time it would be great if I could apply for World Citizenship with appropriate passport. Apply to UN? UN needs drastic revision. Get rid of Veto by any of the Five. Also a genuine fighting force with real credibility for when just solutions can not be resolved.

To clarify a few points: This topic was started somewhat but not entirely, tongue in cheek. [Siscri, perhaps you are familiar with Irish born Jonathan Swift's satirical essay "A Modest Proposal"? dealing with the English's "Irish problem."

I do not want to be able to say I am an Honorary Canadian out of physical fear of being attacked because I am American. It is to avoid having to explain that I am ashamed of the USA's imperialist and racist and viscious behavior as the only super power. On the other hand to simply claim to be a Canadian when I am not is a deception that violates my principles of courage and truth which are of my essence.

Allen, you proudly display your American flag. You doubtlessly start from different assumptions than I do. Loyalty and patriotism are paramount for you, I guess. Many of my friends and relatives feel similarly. At one time I would have also displayed the stars and stripes. I served honorably as a US Naval officer and for a short time piloted Navy fighter jets anxious to shoot down the Soviet nuclear bombers that we were constantly told back then were just over the horizon. I have not become a pacifist. But I have never ascribed to "My country, right or wrong!" And now I have come to see her as wrong, Very wrong -- in Afghanistan, Iraq and especially as regards to our support of Ersatz Israel's expansionist and racist policies in the greater Middle East.

Had considered deleting the above paragraph or maybe this whole entry but have decided to let it stand. It might be nice if Travel Pod could be entirely apolitical. But controversial view points can not be avoided. And usually for most people traveling broadens their peripheral vision.

[radsolv]

["You know, every time I feel myself becoming a bit biased, I just read another report on the "other" side....it brings things back into perspective - every attrocity from one side can easily be matched by another...it's a sad state of affairs, but it's true.

But then again, it's a tad easier to be unbiased when you're not Jewish, Israeli, Palestinian or Arab!"] -- Jessica CDN
[Can't figure out how to use the Quote button.]


I am a second generation American without any known Jewish or Arab blood. And I do not pretend to be unbiased.

While I agree that the blame game, who started it, is a never ending regressive cycle, I think it should be pelucid that there is absolutely no even matching up of atrocities on each side.

As of now the death toll is generally reported as at least ten to one deaths. Mostly ederly, women and children on Lebanese side. The ratio of serious injuries is doubtlessly much higher. And then will all the uncounted bodies under the rubble of multi story buildings ever be added to the total? In Palestine the ratio is about four to one.

The theory of a Just War says it should be proportionate and defensive. It is impossible for me to see Israel's respnse as anything but out of all proportion to the provocation. It is a hugely unequal battle. Having all my life routed for the under dog, I am whole heartedly on the side of Hizbollah and Hamas. Israel and America with their shock and awe are by far the greater terrorists.

On the WW III issue. First off what is meant by a World War. If this escalates into all out fighting between USA, Israel and maybe Britain if lap dog Tony has not been removed, versus Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran will that be considered a 'world war'? I suspect Saudi, Egypt, Kuwait will try to stay uninvolved unless the populace overthrows the toadying rulers. As much as Israel will try to get the USA to crush Iran for her, I think even Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld might finally listen to their generals are realize that would over extend America's military.

To be a 'true world war' would it have to involve the European powers plus Russia, China and Japan, and Pakistan and India? Wow. Apocolypse Now! for sure. Don't think that scenario is at all likely. After all the Cold War lasted more than forty years, with a plethora of 'little' wars but never the big one. It could still happen but the odds are long. But that is of no comfort to me. The ongoing and unnecessary carnage saddens me greatly. And how many know what went on in the Congo for many years? It only recently came to my attention. Millions killed.

Is there some place on earth where TV, computers and especially cell phones are unknown. For a while it was Bhutan, but they have caved to the profits of tourism.

[radsolv]

Allen,

There is no way that we could ever have a meaningful discussion on the topic of Israel and its right to exist. I have a cousin and some friends that would buy your view points entirely. We learned mostly to avoid the subject. I have other friends that compute the world situation much as I do.

But what really fascinates me is how a human brain and mind functions. Are there immutable laws of logic that are programmed into every human brain? When we look at some thing, what do we see and what ignore? How do we process raw data before storing it for later retrieval. How do we 'know' what we know. Who do we believe and who disbelieve. What are our basic assumptions. And are they really basic or do they rest on deeper unquestioned beliefs. How capable is one of changing ones view point, what or who one believes. Does George W. Bush speak directly to God and is he infallable as he has claimed? Is Truth important or something to be spun, manipulated or ignored.

Allen, I have looked at your Travel Logs and will return to them to seek for clues as to why you are such an Israeliphil.

I did read you blog on your heliciopter trip from Atlanta to Anchorage. Some great photos but not much info. How did you manage to rate the trip? Something to do with your intelligence connections?

Oh yes. My definition from Ameican Heritage Dictionary.
Bigotry is the belief that one group, usually ones own, is superior to all others.
Racism is bigotry based on race.


And what are your thoughts on WW III?
Will Israel ever be able to live in peace?
What are the borders of Eratz Israel?
God gave the Promised Land to the Hebrews. It extends from the Egypt River to the Euphrates. Israel has a lot of expanding to do to secure her Yaveh given bordrs. Can she depend on America's continued support?

[Caro!]

Well I just wish we had more info about this in the American media. I was disgusted yesterday when I saw in the main page of the Wall Street Journal a pic of a Jewish mother walking through a bloody floor with her two babies. I can't remeber exactly what the headline was, but I remeber it had something to do with the fact that 15 jewish were kill by a missil. As I read the article I thought about all the hundreds of people that have died in Lebanon, and the American media hasn't bother to talk about .
I am not jewish nor arab, but I have friends that are. I'm concern with what might happen and I feel sorry for the people of the two countries that at this moment are suffering with this political war.
Caro!

[uncle_davros]

Caro, this is called propaganda.

When we were in Iran, we only ever saw bad things on from the West. None of this running around flowery meadows, as we all know !!!

I have Jewish blood in me. I have listened to the Jewish side, and I have also listened to my Middle Eastern friends. I hear what they both say, but it is always through the eyes of their own side.

No one will win. Only death will come out on top in this one

[radsolv]

Change the Question.

I do not wish to start a new Forum topic but at this point would like to revise the question originally raised. Whether Israel should or should not have is no longer relevant. The fact is they did once again as in 1978 and 1982 invade Lebanon under shady pretext and massively disproportianate retaliation to the slight provocation. They occupied southern Lebanon up to the Latani River for eighteen years before temporarily withdrawing in 2000 under pressure from Hizbollah. It seems clear that they now once again intend to occupy southern Lebanon.

The questions I would now like to raise are:

Can there be a cease fire now?
How soon?
How can it be implemented?
Through a UN resolution? Will Israel obey it? Lebanon? Hezbolloah?

Can the USA pressure Israel to cease fire? Will they? When if ever?

Is this a 'fair fight'? Is Israel doing nothing but defending herself? Deep inside Lebanon's borders?

Is Hezbollah a terrorist group or freedom fighters? Hamas?
Should they be disarmed? Why? How? By whom?

What casualty figures do you believe?
If there is to be a buffer zone occupied by an international force, on whose side of the border should it be?

[uncle_davros]

So, the world leaders have come up with a plan for a cease fire, which, understandably, Lebanon does not like as it allows Israel to remain on it's territory.

[Jessica_CDN]

They shouldn't waste their breath / effort - Israel will only stop when it feels that it has accomplished its aims - which have clearly been on the horizon for some time preceeding this conflict!! So I expect at least a few more weeks of war until the majority of Hezbollah is eliminated....and many more die.

[uncle_davros]

Jess

The problem we have here is that yes, many more will die, but the more that die, the more that will join there side, so this will never end.

[Caro!]

I think the conflict will last longer than what we all want. This is a "great" opportunity for BUSH (Fuc*%$#...) to get in a conflict with Iran and Syria.
Caro!

[kris]

obviously ehud olmert has been mouthing off about those two countries for the sake of bush.. even though olmert would never go and attack them.
leave that to big dubya.

[radsolv]

I think the conflict will last longer than what we all want. This is a "great" opportunity for BUSH (Fuc*%$#...) to get in a conflict with Iran and Syria.
Caro!

Hey Caro, could you please translate *%$#... or do I have to go to yr Espanol Forum?

Really though you surprise me and encourage me with your ability to interpret beyond the TV sound bites. To see the obvious bias of the US main stream media. There are alternative sources. Let me know and I will send you some.

And to unearth LooseChange9/11.com and recommend it. Not proved beyond a reasonable doubt but certainly demonstrates the official version is even weaker.

Su pais de navidad es Columbia, verdad? Just read that Urbide was re elected Pres. first in hundred years or so to get re elected. Understand he is closest in Latin America to Bush. Has made Columbia safer and has hindered the cocaine trade. Could you clarify matters for me from your viewpoint?

By the way are you familiar with 'Nostromo' by Joseph Conrad one of the greatest of English novelists. He invents a South American country, around late 1800s. Columbia could have been a model. Absolutely riviting read. Was made into a MPT miniseries about five years ago.

Also what contact do you have with the Cuban community in Miami? Have you been to Cuba?

Yes the neo cons, Bush's puppeteers would like the US to take on Syria and Iran. The question becomes will he be allowed to? Understand his generals strongly advise against it but rising through the ranks by unswerving loyalty and obedience they will obey the Commander in Chief, however ill advised.