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[huckabmm]

My friends and I are planning a big Europe trip for Summer 2009. We're planning on spending about 21 days there, traveling from hostel to hostel. Our tentative itinerary is: Paris - Amsterdam - Heidelberg - Munich - Interlaken - Venice - Rome. I know that this may seem like a massive itinerary for 21days, but we'd like to give it a shot.

I have made a tentative list of things that I would like to do in each of these locations. Any insider advice on these destinations and my initial ideas would be great! Also, what is the general feeling of a 21day Eurail pass vs. individual tickets? Thanks so much, in advance. -Matt

Paris
1. Louvre
2. Student concerts at the Conservatoire National Supérieur de Paris
3. Place des Vosges
4. Bastille

Amsterdam
1. Van Gogh Museum
2. Heineken brewery
3. Café Belgique
4. Shop at the nine streets (theninestreets.com)

Heidelberg
1. The castle
2. Ruprecht-Karls-Universität (University)

Munich
1. Dachau Concentration Camp
2. Deutsches Museum
3. National Museum of Egyptian Art
4. Traditional Beer Garden

Interlaken
1. Skydive
2. Canyon Jump

Venice
1. Saint Mark's Basilica (and Square)
2. Rialto Bridge

Rome
1. Trevi Fountain
2. The Colosseum
3. Vatican City

[starlagurl]

Yeah, that is a pretty tight schedule. That would mean you would get approximately two days in each city, if you take away one day each for traveling.

You will not do everything you want to do in these places during that time, I'm very sure. You've already got lots on your plate, I don't know if you really want us to recommend anything else for you to do!

I would recommend a table d'hote dinner in Venice in one of the many plazas with a nice jug of chianti...mmmm...

I would also skip the Heineken brewery...and go to the Rijksmuseum instead, but I'm a big art fan, so that's just what I would do.

[huckabmm]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Do you think it would be worth skipping one of the cities? If so, which one?

[starlagurl]

Hmmm, is that the order you are traveling in? Because it seems like maybe you should start at Amsterdam and work your way down...

I might cut out Heidelberg...or even Germany entirely and go there some other time.

Actually, the more I look at the map, it seems that Paris is way out of your way...

[lou82]

I think it's completely possible to get round all of your chosen cities in 21 days. I'm not long back from 24 days in New Zealand where I stopped in 12 places. Acouple were just pit stops on the way but I got round fine and yeah I was on a very tight schedule, but I personally don't think you'll have an issue seeing all the sights you've listed.

People travel differently depending on their timescales and what they want from the trip. If you're looking for relaxing day here and there then you aren't going to get it with that itinerary as you'll be constantly moving - but for me I like to constantly move so it's not an issue! I did the same with an interrail trip round part of europe.

The Interrail ticket is a great way to get about. At the time I did it Europe was split into zones but now it's all just done on the amount of days and covers 30 countries. So you'd be looking at a 10 days in 21 pass for £320 for an adult or £213 if you're a student or under 26.

I thought the interrail was a good way to get about as on a really tight schedule like yours I think you'd find it difficult to find the concentration and stamina to drive long distances (if you had that as an alternative method.)

I used sleeper trains on route to new destinations as 1. It saved money on hostels and 2. It freed up more of my days for sightseeing. The only thing to note with that is that there is a small surcharge for sleeper trains if you're going for the couchette which is a 6 man dorm/bunk beds. It really isn't much, we're talking about £2 per sleeper train.

I haven't been to the places listed yet so I can't help with your sights! Looks like you've enough on there though!

[gyl.johnson]

As far as Paris, Place des Vosges and le Bastille would not really be the first two places Id suggest considering your tight schedule. Definitely make the trip to the Louvre and I'd recommend a visit to Notre Dame, not only to see the cathedral, but also its near other beautiful things. Also, its rather touristy but, taking a bateau mouche (a boat ride) along the river Seine would give you the opportunity to see a good chunk of important sites in the city. In fact, some of the fancier boats provide meals and drinks. Lastly why not a walk down the Champs-Elysées and finish with a trip up the Eiffel Tower. It provides the best views of the city and besides, its one of the most famous monuments in the world for a reason.

If you want to avoid the tourist trail, live Paris by night. Except for the Louvre, you can do all the things I suggested in the evening and finish the night clubbing. Here is a good list of recommendations.
Paris Clubs

www.teflanguagehouse.com

[darrenstravels]

That's a hell of a tight schedule, to be honest. Unless you do overnight sleeper trains, that's two days in each city. That's really not very long, especially in places like Amsterdam, Rome and Paris. Throw in a few curveballs like missing your train or getting delayed somewhere, and it all goes to pants.

Your call though, but my personal opinion is that it would be real tight, and probably not too fun - just constant rushing around and missing stuff everywhere.

Can I also make one suggestion? Quit reading the travel guides.

No offence, but just because the guide says it's a must see, doesn't mean it is. Take for instance, the brewery tour in Amsterdam. It's a hour long tour of a factory, with a free drink of lager. I'd imagine you would have far more fun in a pub, or coffee shop, or taking a look at the Anne Frank Museum etc. Most Cities in Europe have a Brewery to look around, if you really must, don't limit yourself to going to the Heineken or Guinness ones because it's in a guidebook.

Also, "traditional beer garden". Go to any pub in Europe and it's likely to have a beer garden. I assume you mean the sort of large oktoberfest style ones? Again, its just sitting on a bench outdoors in the sun - anywhere in Europe will have one. It probably won't be full of people in lederhosen drinking out of Yard of Ale glasses. You need not limit yourself to getting drunk in the sun in just one city.

Also, shopping. Seeing as you mentioned ninestreets.com, I take it you're into cool boutiques and all that? Well places like Paris and Milan are full of them, so you probably don't want to limit yourself to one area.

Saying all that, you will find that you can easily spend a whole day at one of the places on your list (i.e, the Vatican) but 10 minutes at another (Trevi Fountain). So it's possible to do it all....but it will be a rush, and if your intent on seeing those places on the list, be prepared to miss out on so much more.

I don't mean this in a horrible way at all, and I hope my reply isn't taken to be arsey.

[starlagurl]

Yep Darren said it well, even if it does sound a little "arsey". He's harmless though, don't worry.

[huckabmm]

Darren,

Thanks so much for your candor. I appreciate what you're saying and I agree. From the start of planning this trip I felt like we were trying to squeeze too much in. I want to be able to see a lot but also I don't want to feel rushed...it's a tough balancing act...so I am really considering dropping some from the itinerary, but the flights are already booked (in to Paris, out from Rome) so we're set on that. Also, one of my buddy's brothers lives in Heidelberg so we kinda have to go there. Everything else is flexible. Since it's such a tight schedule, what should we drop? Or should we revise completely? Maybe just do Paris, Amsterdam, Heidelberg, and Rome? (The issue is, I've already been to Paris and Rome but my companions have not...)

That being said, I should also tell you that this was a quick list I threw together and I am very glad to get these ideas and suggestions now, rather than getting over there and having a bad trip. I agree you may be right on the brewery tour and I completely forgot about the Anne Frank house...that would be something I would not want to miss!

Lastly, I'm all for getting away from reading the travel guides. I'd love to get off the "beaten path" but for someone who's only been to Europe twice its hard to know where these places are. (Thats why I'm here) Also, since my friends haven't been before they're going to want to do some of the touristy stuff...so I have to find some kind of balance. Any suggestions?

Thanks a lot, you guys are great,
Matt

[starlagurl]

Aw *warm and fuzzy* thanks!

I don't think you'd have a "bad" trip, if you're feeling too rushed, don't forget you can always revise your plans while you are there. They aren't carved in stone...at least I don't think they are...

[darrenstravels]

Most of what I said is because I've made the same mistake on 90% of my trips - too much in too short a time, and I feel I've been shortchanged, with only myself (and my slow legs) to blame. Even with 6 months dedicated to one country - albeit very large - I wanted longer in some places!

I do like the various destinations listed though, I never thought of Germany being too high on the tourists wish list, and I think it's a country too easily overlooked, especially outside of Berlin. I think you'd have a blast there.

As for dropping a destination, I'd say personally leave it in, and if you're running out of time, decide on the fly what to do. As Louise said, plans don't need to be set in stone. Europe is sort of small, in comparison with your home country, and you'll find that no place is too far away...you won't end up in the arse end of nowhere with nothing to do!

I think you could easily get to all those places you mentioned, however I don't think you'd have time to look around them! The Vatican took two days of my time. I figured it would take one morning. I think you'll find the same - on paper you think "Aw, we'll be done in a morning" then you find a place you really like, and before you know it its 7pm....throwing the other things on the list totally out the window. Have done it all myself - had a list of places to see, didn't see half of them (and those I did, were rushed) because I didn't factor in all the random places you end up at - maybe a cool bar, or restaurant, or bumped into cool people you ended up going someplace with.

Above all, I think just going abroad with some friends will be a great trip, regardless of where you actually go or what you see.

Unless you watch "Hostel" on the plane trip over.

[huckabmm]

Thanks so much for the encouragement. You're right about being flexible...I think some times the most fun and memorable things about travel are the unplanned things, and I tend to "over-plan"...hopefully not at the expense of these experiences.

I was doing some thinking about the itinerary though and it seems to me that Amsterdam is really out of the way. If we ditch Amsterdam and Venice that would give us more time elsewhere. I was also doing some digging and came up with a few other cities that might be interesting as well. What do you think about:

Paris-Heidelberg-Zurich-Pisa-Rome
Paris-Heidelberg-Munich-Pisa-Rome

or Milan or Genoa instead of Pisa

All in all there is just too much to see and at times my eyes are bigger than my stomach so to speak. I guess there's always the next trip!

[darrenstravels]

I think something like Paris-Heidelberg-Munich-Pisa-Rome would be good, as Pisa is on the route from Munich to Rome, as opposed to Amsterdam which is slightly out of the way, unfortunately.

Have you thought about sleeping on the overnight trains? Means more time having fun, and no skanky hostels!

[travelmonster]

Milan is awesome, I spent a couple days there back in the summer - wonderful architecture if you like that sort of thing.

[huckabmm]

I'm going to have a conference with my travel buddies over the Christmas holiday...we're going to discuss possible changes in the itinerary...I'll let you all know how it goes. Thanks for the help!

[starlagurl]

Great, those kinds of conferences are always fun times. I hope you got some good information from us.

[huckabmm]

Got some sad news today.

One of my travel partners has to back out. She is in medical school so her finances are tight but she was going to try to make it work. She told her parents about it and they were furious. Apparently they didn't want her to go because they thought it was irresponsible to spend that kind of money when she was already in debt from school. They don't realize that this is her last free summer before the life of a doctor consumes her! She told me that they want her to spend her time off in the summer with them, and for her to take three weeks in Europe would be unacceptable.

So she had been fighting with her parent over this for the past few weeks when they finally lowered the boom...they said that if she had the money to go to Europe then she had the money to pay her cell phone bill and car bills, so they wouldn't pay for any of that anymore. Well my friend cant afford to lose all her parents support, so she had to back down.

Can you believe this!? I was really shocked that her parents would be so selfish that they felt it necessary to threaten their daughter to get her to see their way. What happened to talking things out? I guess if people don't have "the bug" then they can't really understand that allure of travel...but her mom spent a year in France during college...so I just don't understand it!

Anyway, that's enough ranting from me...I just needed some support after this really terrible news.

[starlagurl]

Well, why are her parents paying for her bills? That's a little strange... How old is this person? Why doesn't she have a part time job to pay for these things herself? I think it's overwhelmingly generous of her parents to pay for these things, but I also don't think that because they are paying for this, they can control your friend's life...it's a strange circumstance.

This also is not the last summer of her life... my doctor friend goes traveling way more than most people I know! He has all kinds of vacation time and also the funds to pay for exotic trips all over the place... he thinks traveling is important, and this is reflected in his job and lifestyle choice.

I think you are going with people other than her, right? Your plans can still go ahead.

I don't want to sound harsh, but she seems a little spoiled to me... it might be a good thing that she's not going after all...

I of course, could be totally off on this one...as usual...

[darrenstravels]

Wow, that's a turnup for the books. Seems odd though that a College student can be told what to do by their parents...though if they are paying for her stuff, then I guess they have every right to do so.

Oddly my Parents enjoy my love of travel, because they didn't have the chance to do it.

But this isn't about them, so I'll shut up.

How does this change your plans, if at all? How much did you guys think this would cost?

[huckabmm]

Hi all, sorry its taken me so long to report back but here goes...

Basically we cut out Venice, so our new schedule is this:

Paris-Amsterdam-Heidelberg/Munich-Interlaken-Rome

The reason I say Heidelberg/Munich is because some of us will go to Heidelberg and some will go to Munich, and we're going to meet back up in Interlaken.

This gives us about 4 days in each city, barring travel time. Speaking of that...what do you think about train passes? Is it worthwhile to get a Eurail pass? What about sleeper trains? I've been told that if you do use a Eurail pass you have to reserve seats and even pay more for some trips...so that being said, would it be better to just buy individual tickets for these trips?

Any further advice on this itinerary would be great also!

Thanks!