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[big_red_truck]

The "cost" of losing 2 days of work to get healthcare is far greater than the benefit of it being free.

To you, yes, but to someone who can't afford to pay it no matter how cheap it is, it's priceless.

Well, I ask you. All this happened in Porto Seguro. Don't you think it would have been a bit faster in Rio or Salvador?

Ahh...now we can get into the upper/lower class discussion. To answer Martin, in Rio(not sure about Salvador), going to the government clinic would have taken just as long. But in the larger cities, you have the option of going to a "private" clinic in which you pay for the medical care and you get it quickly (and according to my Brasilian coworkers, the quality is better). There isn't the option in most of the smaller cities and towns so everyone has to either go and waste a lot of time at the local clinic, or travel to a larger city. So if you live in a small city or town, it's very difficult to climb the financial ladder if you have to take 2 or 3 days to try to get into see a doctor at the government clinic.

And to Louise, I am reminded that "You get what you pay for". The quality of the care at the government clinics are "adequate" at best. If any of the Brasilians I work with get sick or get injured, they fly to Curitiba or Sao Paulo for treatment. They refuse to go to the government clinics or hospital in Tres Lagoas because they've seen the mistakes that have been made. But they COULD use the government clinics and hospitals if they chose too.

From what I've seen from friends in the US, if you go to the hospital, and you really can't pay, the hospital eats the costs. The hospital prices this in accordingly. So those that can pay subsidize those that can't. In socialized healthcare, even if you could pay, you don't have to. So someone with money can get the government to pay for what they could afford on their own. Or they can pay extra if they want to. How is that any different than what the US has now except that it's one more expense the government taxes us for?

Oh and one more thought...we've seen how well governments do at governing...do you really want it to be in charge healthcare? (I don't think the lawyers should be in charge of healthcare either as it currently is in the US...but that's another topic entirely)

P.S. I'm not a Republican, I'm a libertarian...I'd prefer the government to stay out of most everything!

[littlekate]

I'm not sure about Salvador, but if it was in Russia it would be exactly the same. As for simple things like injections our private clinics would show their best - everything quich, polite and high-tech. When you need something serious, doctor's brains involving, then personality of the doctor is critical, and I can not say that all clever doctors here work for private clinics - absolutly not. So, we find a clever and known doctor and pay him (or her) under the table. That's normal practice here. If we are treated within "free" system, we normally pay the doctor under the table because government, or insurance companies just starve our doctors. I'd be happy if they took their hands off our doctors!

[starlagurl]

[quote
And to Louise, I am reminded that "You get what you pay for". The quality of the care at the government clinics are "adequate" at best. If any of the Brasilians I work with get sick or get injured, they fly to Curitiba or Sao Paulo for treatment. They refuse to go to the government clinics or hospital in Tres Lagoas because they've seen the mistakes that have been made. But they COULD use the government clinics and hospitals if they chose too.

But to this, I say, at least the people who can't afford it have a formalized system they can count on, rather than hoping that the hospital "eats" the costs.

[big_red_truck]

But if the majority of people are counting on a system that is providing the care for free, you're not going to expect the best care possible. And if the people aren't expecting the best care possible, that's not going to promote excellence in the medical field. Do you want medical care in a place where the culture doesn't encourage and expect excellence in the medical field?

[starlagurl]

I guess that's the tradeoff, yep.

[mmbcross]

now we can get into the upper/lower class discussion.

This would be fine if there were just two classes. Regrettably most of us are sandwiched in the "middle" classes, and we are getting shafted by the other two classes.

[big_red_truck]

This would be fine if there were just two classes. Regrettably most of us are sandwiched in the "middle" classes, and we are getting shafted by the other two classes.

I have noticed here (in Brasil) though that the disparities between the lower and middle class are so large that the middle class is generally grouped in with the upper class.

...First, I don't think you can argue that socialized medicine somehow inherently "dumbs down" the quality of healthcare. And just because the care is "free" to the user doesn't somehow inherently mean that the system is of poorer quality...

I have seen here that people don't expect the best care from government. And I argue that if you don't expect the best...you generally won't get it.

...I'm no expert in this matter, but I remember, while watching the movie Sicko, seeing an interview with a British doctor (I think) who made a modest base pay, but was able to earn bonuses for meeting high standards of care. He was very proud of his work. My point is, if the system is set up to reward doctors for better quality care, there will be incentive to do more than what can be gotten by with. But that is true of any system, government or private...

I'm all for results-based pay...that is one of the better facets of capitalism

...Second, I don't think anyone would argue that the US system of healthcare provides excellent care. If anything, doctors churn patients without spending the time or resources to find the causes of symptoms, leading to misdiagnosis and additional trips to medical facilities, etc, etc. Sometimes it seems like our doctors are looking for any opportunity to prescribe the newest drug for that lucrative bonus. Understand, I'm not saying that all doctors approach medicine this way, but for too many of them do.

I guess that my main point is that whether you have a socialized system or a private system, the problems are similar and fixable.

I will argue that in the U.S., we do have excellent medical care. The main problem is the lawyers who are now running the healthcare system...not the doctors. The reason people leave the U.S. to go get medical care in other countries isn't because of the quality, it's because of the cost. And yes, it is fixable...if enough people are dissatisfied with the system and cared enough to do it, we could throw off the current status quo.

[starlagurl]

Haha, how did this become a healthcare discussion?

Let's talk about Cuba again. Sorry I got it off topic, sometimes I get carried away.

I made another topic to try and divert the discussion: http://www.travelpod.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14996

[big_red_truck]

Sorry sorry....so back to Cuba...who's planning to go there as soon as the travel restrictions are lifted? Raise your hand!

[mmbcross]

Hand raised! Keep in mind it's only 90 miles from Key West to Havana, so it's a hop, skip and a jump for us here in South Florida. The first organizations to enter after the travel restrictions are lifted will be the cruise lines. The Bahamas will suffer as they will all replace Nassau with Havana.

[starlagurl]

How much longer would a cruise to Havana take? They look about the same distance from Miami, so you might be right! Oh my!

How friendly is Cuba to gay travel? I know the Bahamas are not at all.

[big_red_truck]

Hand raised! Keep in mind it's only 90 miles from Key West to Havana, so it's a hop, skip and a jump for us here in South Florida...

Or a long bathtub boat ride...

[mmbcross]

My goodness Bill, wherever did you find that photo of me slipping across the straits to purchase my illicit cigars? Please don't let on to the Coast Guard!

Louise, does this answer your question about gay Cuba?
http://www.gaycuba.ca/

[starlagurl]

Yes, a very important segment of the cruising market is gay travelers, looks like they'll beat the Bahamas out easily.